Andrew: 0:17

Welcome back everyone to episode two of season one of Seeking, season Two. Good job.

Catherine: 0:28

Thank you Proud of you.

Andrew: 0:30

I am your host, andrew, and this is my co-host, slash ex-wife. I'll let you introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Catherine.

Catherine: 0:42

Hi Catherine. Hello, how are you? I'm good, other than us. Hello, how are you? I'm good.

Andrew: 0:45

Other than us both being utterly exhausted at the moment.

Catherine: 0:48

And I have very little voice left.

Andrew: 0:51

So we're going to use it on this episode and we're going to talk about. So let's start with this season of the podcast. We are talking about the show Wonderfalls.

Catherine: 1:05

Yes, we are.

Andrew: 1:06

Which was from 2004. Just a quick recap because we talked about it last, episode 2004,. They only aired four out of the 13 episodes.

Andrew: 1:19

We're still in things that actually showed up on TV, still things that actually aired on television. So the whole point of this podcast is to talk about shows that were canceled after one season or didn't even make it a full season, and and how we feel that they they possibly deserved. I guess we'll determine, did they deserve a season two or or not? So so far I I enjoyed the pilot episode. I enjoyed this episode as well, which was episode two, which is called Pink Flamingos. However, this is the one that aired fourth.

Catherine: 1:51

Yeah, I hate when they do this, where they air things out of order, so it doesn't really make sense. I just was just watching that did this and I was annoyed because, oh, okay, I'm about to tell on myself big bang theory. Yes, so there was, I was watching. I don't know I put on big bang theory when I'm gonna take a nap on the couch, got it, and I was watching something and it was like in one episode of the season, um, like penny and leonard were together, and then in the very next one, they weren't.

Catherine: 2:26

Oh weird, Because they aired things out of order. I hate when they do that.

Andrew: 2:30

Yeah, it's a little odd because, because you were, we were introduced to Gretchen Speck Horowitz, one of her high school classmates, in the pilot episode, right, and Gretchen Speck Horowitz shows up again in this episode, which is technically episode two, so it carries over her, her character carries over into this episode. But what was I going to say, her character carries over into this episode, so it's, it's a natural transition from episode one to to episode two. But at least on the DVD they correct that, yeah, which is nice.

Catherine: 3:12

And if you watch it on YouTube, it's in the correct order.

Andrew: 3:16

Right. So that is that the episode is called Pink Flamingos. Yep, and the kind of the brief synopsis of this one is so. It starts out um an accident a car you know called car accident an accident. Um jay's father ends up in the hospital. That kicks off a subplot. Um, jay is well, gretchen, gchen is, because she's going on her pilgrimage to Israel when the 10th reunion would happen. So she's having a six-and-a-half-year reunion.

Catherine: 3:59

Yeah, as you do.

Andrew: 4:01

As you always do, as you do, as you always do. And so Gretchen is trying to rope Jay into helping her set up and prep this reunion, so she's trying to get sucked into that. A couple quick notes on the episode. It was directed by Todd Holland and he directed about five episodes of Wonderfalls actually. It was directed by Todd Holland and he directed about five episodes of Wonderfalls actually, which I thought was interesting. So he's been around there for a while. He's directed tons of stuff written and directed a ton of stuff over the years.

Andrew: 4:40

The episode itself was written by and this was interesting Gretchen J Berg and aaron harbert harbert's okay, if you look on imdb, it gives you a complete different set of writers, but if you watch the episode, this is who they say wrote this right, wrote this episode. But, um, gretchen berg well, gretchen and aaron are writing partners and they've been writing partners ever since, um, they attended Northwestern university. So they, they, they just have written a ton of things. Um, I think he was. I think they came in on the late, the late end of nine, oh, two, one, oh.

Andrew: 5:16

Interesting he was like he was, like they were like both writers I think she was a script supervisor and he was a writer on like the last two seasons of 90210 was that around, when um kelly had a drug problem and donna and david got married? I have no clue. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't watch. I watched some of 90210, but I didn't get into the.

Catherine: 5:38

I I tapered off after the, you know, those last seasons um I listened to a fantastic rewatch podcast called Again With this, with two of the founders of Television Without Pity Right, and they went through the entire series, wow 90210.

Andrew: 5:57

Oh my God, Interesting. So yeah, so Gretchen was a writer-producer on Wonderfalls. She shows up again as the co-executive producer of Pushing Daisies. She was also the showrunner, interestingly enough, of some of the early seasons of Star Trek Discovery. Brian Fuller, the creator of Wonderfalls, is also credited as being the creator of Star Trek Discovery. However, he left before it went to series.

Andrew: 6:27

So I don't know if there's some creative differences or what. So, as I say, don't blame him for the bad Klingon makeup. Any Star Trek Discovery fans out there will know what I'm talking about. The Klingons looked really weird in Discovery. Fortunately they went back to. The Klingons looked really weird in Discovery. Fortunately they went back to the usual Klingon makeup for Strange New Worlds, which is a pseudo spinoff of Discovery. But anyway, I digress. All right, let's kick it off. So that's kind of the intro. So let's kick it off. Let's that's kind of. That's kind of the intro. So let's kick it off. Let's talk about what are some of the. Let's talk about the main plot. So what's, what's the? The main plot, which is the? Basically, the pink flamingos, yep, are, kick kick this off right at the very beginning. And what do they say?

Catherine: 7:19

get off your ass get off your ass.

Andrew: 7:22

Now, this is so so that. So that's the whole thing. The pink flamingos say get off your ass. Jay's in the car doesn't get off her ass. Father has the accident because the car rolls over him.

Catherine: 7:33

Right, how do you run over somebody from the passenger seat? That's what her sister asks. Oh yeah, how do you run over somebody from the passenger seat?

Andrew: 7:44

Well, Jay is apparently successful in doing that.

Catherine: 7:47

Yep.

Andrew: 7:48

So Jay is tasked with helping Gretchen throw the six and a half year reunion, however, it's so, interestingly enough. So the, the muses, is what they're, what they're known as the, the voices of the Various things, various things.

Andrew: 8:06

Various animals, things that talk to her. Initially they say, get off your ass Right. And then at some point they tell Jay to destroy Gretchen, right. So this will help Gretchen reevaluate her marriage. And here's what I find interesting, though We'll get into that in a little bit. I don't want to get into the details, but that's the main plot. Is there anything else that you?

Catherine: 8:35

No, I don't think so that pretty much covers that. That's the main plot.

Andrew: 8:39

The six and a half year reunion is the main plot, jay helping Gretchen with that. The subplot kicked off by the accident is because Jay's sister yeah. Sharon, sharon, sharon, sharon. Has this, this love interest? The woman who was the ex-wife of the EPS driver? It doesn't even. I don't know if he just disappears, oh poor bitch. I know. So he's gone. He's gone, and Sharon is trying to in some way get on a date with this woman.

Catherine: 9:26

Yep.

Andrew: 9:27

And so the whole kind of subplot is them trying to get together because Sharon is taking care of the father and so the other woman thinks that she's not interested, like she's just putting her off. Right so it becomes a whole thing, and so that's kind of the subplot of them trying to get on a date.

Catherine: 9:48

Yeah wacky lesbian drama. What's that Wacky lesbian drama.

Andrew: 9:52

Wacky lesbian drama. Yes, let's go, lesbians.

Catherine: 9:56

Let's go lesbians.

Andrew: 9:59

I love that so much. Billy on the street. Alright, so that's the plot, the subplot, that really is the two things that are happening in this episode. So all right, so let's talk about, let's break down the main plot.

Catherine: 10:16

Yes.

Andrew: 10:17

So get off your ass. Here's my first problem with this episode. Okay, let's talk about this. So the muses tell her to get off her. Tell Jay to get off her ass. Right, if she actually got off her ass.

Catherine: 10:32

Yeah, her father might've died from a blood clot.

Andrew: 10:36

So that's the whole thing. So what happened? So, for anyone who's watched it. So the father he goes in the hospital because he breaks multiple fractures in his leg, but they discover a blood clot in his leg, and so this inadvertently saves his life. But had Jay gotten off her ass? If she had listened to the muses then and gotten off her ass, her father probably would be dead.

Catherine: 11:00

But here's the thing. So I don't think it's a problem with the episode because, since this is aired in the proper order and this is episode two, I think the muses are kind of counting on the fact that Jay is probably not going to do what they tell her to immediately.

Andrew: 11:16

That's that's pretty bold of them to like be like oh, she won't believe us anyway.

Catherine: 11:20

Look what she did in the first episode.

Andrew: 11:22

I understand you know.

Catherine: 11:23

Well, look what she did in the first episode. I understand, so I feel like maybe it's a calculated risk on their part that she's going to be like I'm not getting out of the car, which is exactly what she did.

Andrew: 11:33

Right, I understand. I understand she's still adjusting to the muses. She's like no, this is not happening again.

Catherine: 11:40

Wire, inanimate objects. Speaking to me Exactly.

Andrew: 11:44

A whole flock of pink flamingos.

Catherine: 11:46

Are those flamingos on their lawn or the neighbor's lawn? That's a bigger question for me.

Andrew: 11:50

Well, here's the thing they are not a pink flamingo family. Well, here's the thing she looks out both windows and they're there, and they're there.

Catherine: 11:57

Are the flamingos moving?

Andrew: 12:02

I don't, I don't know. Is she hallucinating? The pink flamingos.

Catherine: 12:05

Is she hallucinating the whole thing?

Andrew: 12:07

Right, exactly, is this going to be a new heart situation? I just watched that clip recently, but I don't know. So the whole thing is confusing for me Because, again, if she had listened to them, then this would have been, this would have been a tragic episode yeah, we would have lost bill sadler, and that would have been super sad, right?

Catherine: 12:32

super sadler, super sadler, oh, sorry, so that's the thing.

Andrew: 12:39

So like so again. Okay, so, okay, so, let's. So that's. Let's. So like, so again, okay, so, okay, so, let's. So that's, let's get that out of there. So so now. Now she has to get off her ass.

Catherine: 12:50

Right.

Andrew: 12:51

And she finally agrees. So so we get to. She finally agrees to to help Gretchen.

Catherine: 12:58

Right.

Andrew: 12:59

Because and this, this brings up a lot of what's the word I'm looking for kind of conflict for Jay Sure, because she's preparing the name tags for the reunion.

Andrew: 13:19

And so she's cutting out the copies of the yearbook and she's cutting out her section of the yearbook and it's cutting out her, her section of the yearbook. And it's like no clubs, no, nothing, right, like she, she doesn't, didn't participate in in anything. So it's like again we go back to the. You know, her sister's a successful lawyer, um, her father's a doctor, her mother's an author, um, we don't know what. At this point, we don't know what the brother does. Well, he's, yeah, quite yet we discover that in episode three next episode next episode.

Catherine: 13:49

We'll talk about that um my issue with that though, is jay went to brown. Right, she went to brown. You don't get into brown if you have no clubs, no, whatever like she could not have possibly been as disaffected in high school right as she is now. So I think that's a miss on their part, actually, Because I feel like if, like, she wouldn't have gotten into Brown if she wasn't an achiever. You can't just be smart Like she's obviously intelligent.

Andrew: 14:16

Right.

Catherine: 14:17

But like to get into an Ivy. You can't just be smart.

Andrew: 14:20

Well, so what you have to have. So let's talk about this. Her father's a doctor, her mother's an author, did they?

Catherine: 14:26

You think they bought her way in?

Andrew: 14:27

Did they buy? Maybe Now we're uncovering, opening a whole can of worms here Conspiracy. Oh my God, what happened? How did Jay get into Brown? That's a very good point, though she did nothing in high school.

Catherine: 14:41

Okay, wait, I'm forgetting her name now. Rebecca, the one who bought her kid's way into school. Oh, the fake, her name's not Rebecca. She played Aunt Becky on.

Andrew: 14:54

Fall Out, I know, I know, lori Loughlin, lori Loughlin yes, so do her parents, know, lori Loughlin. Right, maybe this was like the precursor to the buying your way into school.

Catherine: 15:07

I don't know. I mean, it just seems impossible to me because, like you, know I was an achiever and I went to a good school and I was in a massive amount of clubs. I was the editor of the newspaper, I played soccer, I worked after school. Like you had to have activities, right, you couldn't just do nothing and get into Brown. It's just not happening.

Andrew: 15:31

It's not happening, so very good point, thank you.

Catherine: 15:35

Yeah, every now and then.

Andrew: 15:38

That's a good pickup. So again, somehow Jay got into Brown, Right. We don't know how or why, but clearly she didn't herself earn her way in, perhaps based on her performance in high school.

Catherine: 15:59

I feel like it's just a miss in the writing. Yeah.

Andrew: 16:03

I mean because they started out that way.

Catherine: 16:05

Yeah.

Andrew: 16:06

I think they started out and then they as her going to brown and they got to this episode and was like oh well, how do you?

Catherine: 16:13

and they're really like leaning into the oh. Jay is just disaffected. She's different from her family, but I feel like they would have been better served to make it like jay was an achiever until she got out of college and kind of lost her way right that would.

Andrew: 16:28

that would have been a much better play, I think, but then you wouldn't have this episode. Because that's the whole thing, because she was hoping to wait for the 10-year reunion to have something that she could actually be proud of saying that she had accomplished.

Catherine: 16:44

I still think you could have done this episode, because, even if she, had been an achiever in high school. She could have.

Andrew: 16:49

Yes, and you still could have had this episode because even if she had been an achiever in high school, thank you. What happened? Yes, and you could have had.

Catherine: 16:52

You still could have had the rivalry with Gretchen, because Gretchen is just an awful character.

Andrew: 16:58

I like.

Catherine: 17:02

Why the?

Andrew: 17:04

the the Jewish population is the largest minority in there in their graduating class.

Catherine: 17:09

My favorite well, one of my favorite lines in this episode was the mother turning to Jay and saying Jay, stop teasing. You've seen Fiddler? That's. The only reference point for any knowledge of Jewish people is Fiddler on the Roof Fiddler on the Roof.

Andrew: 17:28

So yeah, so there's definitely some ways they could have done that, done her backstory a little bit better.

Catherine: 17:34

I think Maybe they should have asked me to write this one. Maybe, yeah, 2004, catherine would have been happy to do that.

Andrew: 17:41

I'm sure you would have. Yeah, you would have loved that. I would have. So okay, so, with all those issues notwithstanding, she helps. Well, here's the thing. So her friend Mahandra, janet, Janet, casual racism, yes, she's out to destroy, she's out to destroy Gretchen.

Catherine: 18:10

Right.

Andrew: 18:10

Because well, for one thing, on school photo day.

Catherine: 18:16

Oh God the relaxer.

Andrew: 18:18

The activator.

Catherine: 18:19

Oh the activator. Yes.

Andrew: 18:20

That's right. Fortunately it was Black History Month.

Catherine: 18:24

Oh my God. According to Jay Poor Mahandra with her giant frow.

Andrew: 18:28

Oh man, casual racism. Casual racism throughout this episode. Mahondra has a chip on her shoulder for Gretchen, so she's not going to help Jay prepare for the six and a half year reunion, so she's got her own beef with Gretchen. So, anyway, they get to the reunion and Gretchen's very effusive about her marriage.

Catherine: 19:12

And what is?

Andrew: 19:13

your favorite line? Wait which one?

Catherine: 19:14

The man of the dreams. When the Marine says to her so he's the man of your dreams, and she replies he's the man of my list, exactly. Sure, he checks all the boxes. She doesn't actually love him.

Andrew: 19:24

She doesn't actually love him and she realizes that.

Catherine: 19:29

Well, I think for somebody like Gretchen, the idea of being married is more important than who you marry and whether it's a good marriage.

Andrew: 19:35

Right, and one of the interesting things is so, before she has that realization, is it the chicken on the hair clip is the first one to tell her to destroy? Gretchen, tell Jay to destroy. Gretchen, tell Jay to destroy.

Catherine: 19:50

Gretchen I think so.

Andrew: 19:54

I can't remember which muse it is that tells no.

Catherine: 19:56

I'm pretty sure it's the chicken, because then it comes out with the other line that I love Defy the chicken.

Andrew: 20:02

Defy the chicken. So yeah. So Jay keeps thinking that she's got to help Gretchen, help Gretchen, yeah. So Jay keeps thinking that she's got to help Gretchen, help Gretchen. And then there's a seismic shift in what the muses say. Now they're like destroy Gretchen. She's like wait what? She's very confused.

Catherine: 20:26

I also thought and I'm backtracking a little bit but when Gretchen has the get-together in the hotel to meet the husband, yes, how? And Jay kind of says this too why are Jay Mahondra whose name she doesn't even know and Jay's mother the only guests at this thing and Jay's mother?

Andrew: 20:49

the only guests at this thing, Because I don't think I think any friends that Gretchen had were superficial friends.

Catherine: 21:01

Well, duh, because look at Gretchen.

Andrew: 21:03

Exactly so. I think her relationships are very superficial, and so these are probably the only people that will still talk. That's still like actually acknowledge her. Yeah, whether it's for good or bad, I feel like they're the only people that are still.

Catherine: 21:19

What did she call them? Her posse or her squad? I forget.

Andrew: 21:24

I don't think squad was a thing at that point. I don't think squad was a thing, probably posse, yeah. So yeah, they're supposed to meet the husband. The husband's running late, he never quite shows up.

Catherine: 21:39

Well, because he gets in an accident, he gets into a car accident. Right, which is also well, that's so. That's see. This is why I think the muses know more than we think they know.

Andrew: 21:49

Okay.

Catherine: 21:50

Because Jay calls the husband to harass him to get him there and that causes the accident, right, and him not arriving and Gretchen having the conversation with the stalkerish Marine Again terrifying when you look at it in 2025. Right, I mean, it was probably scary in 2004, but it was like played for comedy, right, whereas now it would be like Holy crap, like get a restraining order against this guy.

Andrew: 22:22

I just I just see this happening on a Dateline episode with I've been over, but we've been watching a lot of this with Keith Morrison, yeah.

Catherine: 22:37

Oh, episode with I've been over, but we've been watching a lot of this with keith morrison. Yeah, ah, that pesky dna well and he had like he's he's in the military, which means he has weapons. Like that's not ptsd, yeah well, and that's not who you want to be like obsessed with you no well, you don't want anyone really to be that level of obsessed he, he was really creepy.

Andrew: 22:48

Yeah, it really was. He's the man of my list, that's right, so yeah, so I mean that's kind of the whole plot. So then she realizes, so Gretchen realizes that again she doesn't really love Mr Horowitz, mm-hmm, and she kind of has her her moment of liberation and and checks out which I, which is great, I mean, which is good for her.

Andrew: 23:17

I mean she realizes that and, while she's still young, um, and, and, and and moves on, which I thought was really interesting. Um, anything else about the, the main, the main plot that you thought was interesting.

Catherine: 23:32

Can we talk about we used to be friends, because there's a few things I want to say about that.

Andrew: 23:39

Well, I was going to get to that. I was going to get to that in some of the trivia.

Catherine: 23:42

Okay, well, because it's not just used once. Did you notice that part? Yeah, it's weird. It's throughout the episode so I was wondering if it was the music we're talking about, right, the, so should I just talk about it now?

Catherine: 23:55

let's just talk about it now, okay, so the theme song to veronica mars we used to be friends by the dandy warhols. Dandy warhols plays in this episode multiple times, right, my question when I heard it the second time was was this actually the original music used or did they slap it in again because they couldn't get the rights to something else when they did the dvds? Because that happens a lot with these shows where, like, they have to like slot in something else because they can't get the rights I don't know I mean dawson's creek has a whole other theme song on the dvds right, oh wow really yeah, I know, isn't that weird?

Catherine: 24:36

that is weird and it's a sucky song. It has to be. I don't want to wait, like interesting, but anyway yes, um, I just thought it was interesting that it showed up so many times, because it's like 2004, like there's plenty of music you could have used.

Catherine: 24:49

That was not that, but it was also just unless they're very low budget well, I think they probably were very low budget, um, but it also just sticks out so much because, well for me, because I'm a huge veronica mars fan, so I mean, as soon as I hear that song, that's the only thing I associated with. Just like, if I see a bright yellow pathfinder, all I think of is Logan Eccles, xterra. Was it Xterra? It was a Nissan Xterra. Still see them out there, though. I know it's weird, I think the same thing.

Andrew: 25:18

Logan Eccles. Logan Eccles, there you are. I find it interesting because it was both. Because Veronica Mars was 2004 as well, right, so this was a big year for the Dandy Warhols.

Catherine: 25:32

A big year for the Dandy Warhols in general, I think.

Andrew: 25:35

That was it. They peaked.

Catherine: 25:41

They peaked in 2004, and then that was it. Okay, yeah, sorry, that was the only other thing.

Andrew: 25:44

Yeah.

Catherine: 25:46

That I wanted to talk about for that piece of the episode.

Andrew: 25:51

All right, so let's talk about the subplot. Yep, so that was the main storyline. So let's go back, rewind back to the beginning. When Jay does not get off her ass, she reaches to close the driver's side door, puts the car in neutral I guess neutral and starts rolling backwards as her father is picking up the recycling cans and proceeds to roll right over him, putting him in the hospital with multiple fractures. So that's the lead up to then he gets out of the hospital and Sharon picks him up from the hospital and brings him home and is kind of like nursing him back to health, like just keeping an eye on him, right, because I can't remember where the mother is. She's out doing something, oh yeah.

Catherine: 26:40

No, I don't remember. Didn't he not tell the mother he was coming home from the hospital because he didn't want her to cancel whatever plan she had?

Andrew: 26:47

Yeah, something like that.

Catherine: 26:48

This is another piece of the writing that I just don't, I didn't love. They paint the mother to be superficial and kind of awful and then they they seem to be trying to to redeem that a little bit. I think they probably went a little too hard on how shitty the mom is, Um, because they're trying to walk it back. When he said that, I didn't believe it for a second. Right, that woman is not going to do anything she doesn't want to do and she's certainly not going to take time out of her day to go pick him up from the hospital. Of course she's going to send one of the kids Right and she's probably going to send Jay, because they think she's going to send one of the kids right and she's probably going to send jay because they think she's useless.

Andrew: 27:32

Um, so that was jay is the one that did run him over.

Catherine: 27:34

So because she is useless, because who would not get out of the car to help their father with the trash cans? Why does she need flamingos to tell her to get off her ass? Because she is. She is the prototypical slacker. Also, why do they have so many trash cans?

Andrew: 27:48

they are generating a lot of. And that was recycling right. I think it was half recycling, half trash. I vaguely remember, like four cans, two recycling, two trash.

Catherine: 28:00

I grew up in a family of four. This is a family of five, okay. But only three of them are living at home because the brother lives with the parents. Okay, I grew up in a family of four. We never had more than two trash cans. Ridiculous, you also grew up in a family of four. I would imagine you never had more than two trash cans.

Andrew: 28:19

No, I don't ever imagine that, but I mean, it's just again, it's for the sake of visuals. I guess, To make it look bigger than I don't know. I mean, I guess Right To make it look bigger than I don't know.

Catherine: 28:31

I mean, I know we're nitpicking it because we're doing a podcast. But I'm just like usually this kind of stuff doesn't stand out to me and in this show particularly, for some reason it really stands out to me. Interesting. I feel like a lot of it is kind of sloppy writing, I mean. In general I really liked this episode so I hate to be kind of like ripping on it like this, but I do think there were a lot of kind of holes that they could have done a better job with.

Andrew: 28:57

I agree, I'm trying to get to there, I'm trying to remember the actresses name, the, the, the girlfriend of Sharon.

Catherine: 29:09

Oh, I don't know I.

Andrew: 29:14

I don't, I don't. I don't see her credited on oh Beth.

Catherine: 29:18

Oh, that's right. I should have remembered that, since that's my sister's name.

Andrew: 29:22

Yeah, that's all right. Um, so Beth is. So the whole subplot is that Sharon and Beth are well they they started out to, so this will bring up something, okay. So in the subplot, I find it fascinating how we were still at a time when we're like right on the cusp of when smoking was still like an okay thing.

Catherine: 29:48

Right.

Andrew: 29:50

And like not so acceptable Because Sharon's just walking around with a pack of cigarettes.

Catherine: 29:59

Yeah.

Andrew: 30:00

Which I thought was interesting and the mother comes out with the smoking cessation brochure and that's how the mother meets the the other woman, beth. Right Cause Sharon and Beth are talking to them and Sharon's like I don't know her and the mother's like you were just talking to her. What I said was I didn't know she would be here. I'm like oh, okay.

Catherine: 30:27

And the mother's just like okay, and then they go into the carpool thing, which was another great line, carpool, have you gone green?

Andrew: 30:34

Exactly, See again.

Catherine: 30:35

Horrified.

Andrew: 30:42

Have you gone green? Um, so anyway. So the the whole subplot is is is sharon and beth trying to trying to find time to go on a? I don't say go on a date, but get together, get together hang out, hang out, hook up.

Andrew: 30:54

I was gonna say hookup yeah Prior to Netflix and chill yeah. So that's the whole subplot. So it's just on and off. Sharon feels this obligation that she's got to take care of her father, but she still is very interested in Beth and wants to go see her. So it's this back and forth that she's fighting with. Eventually she just, I guess, invites her over to the house.

Catherine: 31:21

Cause she cause she's watching that she, she, drugs the dad drugs.

Andrew: 31:24

the dad she's like cause she sees the bottle of pills and it's like she has this idea, yeah, like the little light bulb goes off over her head and she's like, oh, I have an idea over. And so the father, she like like just loopy out of his mind. I, I love the ending. I love the ending when they're like making out on the floor yeah of the living room and cut over to the father just standing there wearing his underwear he had his teddy whities and he's like and they're just, they're frozen, and he doesn't say a word because he is so.

Catherine: 32:01

Drugged out of his mind. Well, he clearly came down the stairs on the broken leg in a cast. Oh my God, so he is dopey, are his toes blue?

Andrew: 32:11

That was like the other. That was like the running gag about how to know if he was okay. Are my toes blue? No, they're fine. Okay, good, oh my God. So, yes, I think it's one of when we talk about like our favorite moments. In this one, this was one of my favorite moments.

Catherine: 32:29

Yeah.

Andrew: 32:29

At the very end that he and Jay are pulling out of the because he goes for a checkup. I think.

Catherine: 32:37

Yeah, it's like a yeah, Some kind of a followup.

Andrew: 32:39

Yeah, and he's like did you know there was lesbian porn on basic cable?

Catherine: 32:44

I have that. I have that. Did you know our basic cable comes with lesbian porn? I had that written down too, cause I thought that was so funny, so good. It's another piece of it that bothered me a little bit. Why is that? I love not that part of it. Well, to an extent. Okay, let me backtrack.

Catherine: 33:03

I will talk about that part first when Beth is basically like oh, I'm not a lesbian, like I know bisexuals existed, like she just seems so. Oh, like I'm not, you know. Like, yeah, like I, I'm not. You know like yeah, oh, yeah, I hooked up with a girl in college. I was in a sorority, duh it. It's the way that any kind of like queer existence was handled in the early two thousands. Yeah, and it was just like okay, yeah, she likes men. She also clearly likes women because she's pursuing Sharon, right, okay, so you're bisexual, right. Why is this? It was? You know? Again, it's played for humor, and I get it Right, but especially at a time when you weren't seeing gay characters on TV, sure, and you see how difficult being a lesbian is for Sharon, clearly like she is deep in the closet and what, like almost 30.

Andrew: 34:06

According to the next episode, 35, I am not 35. Yeah, so.

Catherine: 34:14

I mean, you know old enough that like it shouldn't matter, but obviously it does, and I do get that whole coming out of the closet piece Right, but I just didn't love the way they played with Beth's sexuality. Yeah.

Andrew: 34:28

Again, it was, it was the time.

Catherine: 34:33

Well, and that's the thing, Like, and that's part of why we're doing this, right, like you look back and it's kind of like okay, okay, here's how things have changed in 20 years. Yeah, um, so I thought that was interesting, but no, then the other piece I was going to talk about is just the relationship between jay and her father, which I love the way it's portrayed in this episode. Um, it's a very kind of like, even though she's seen as the screw-up of the like, she obviously has a special relationship with her dad. Yeah, but again and I know the pilot has a lot to do but again in the pilot you did not get that Right. You truly like just thought the whole family freaking hated her, right, um, so that was a little like, a little jarring for me that it went so rapidly from. He's the guy just yelling like have you had an orgasm? To? Um, you know like, oh, but we have to go get what. Was it Waffles or pancakes?

Andrew: 35:25

pancakes, pancakes.

Catherine: 35:26

Yeah, Sorry. I've watched mission impossible three times recently and, um, because it has the guy from severance in it. Every time he comes on screen I just yell waffle party. So I'm very fixated on waffles right now. Oh yeah, milchak's in it, fascinating. Yeah, he's a. He's a submarine commander, excellent.

Catherine: 35:45

It's amazing and everybody laughs when he comes on screen because all anybody sees this man as this Milchak, because that's his breakout role, Right? But yeah, sorry so pancakes. I yeah, sorry so pancakes. I mean I think it's really sweet and I hope that that relationship kind of continues throughout the series. Yeah, and that comes from, I think, just me having that kind of relationship with my dad.

Andrew: 36:09

There's so many things. So today we're recording two episodes, right, because we're going to also talk in the next episode about episode three. So there's so many things because I've been watching episode three so many times. There's so many things I want to say about episode three.

Catherine: 36:26

I know and I keep getting confused between the two.

Andrew: 36:29

Right, right right.

Catherine: 36:30

Yeah.

Andrew: 36:31

So I think it comes. You see more of that relationship in episode three and we'll talk about that, but that's the whole subplot. Is them finally getting together, um, and, and hopefully we'll see that relationship uh, grow through the season, absolutely, um, all right, so we've already talked about a couple of them, so let's talk about our top three favorite moments of this episode and go.

Catherine: 36:56

I might have already talked about all of them.

Catherine: 36:58

I'll just go through it quickly. Oh okay, this one I didn't talk about and I thought this was so funny. So Jay is telling Mahondra what happened to her father and she says he got run over, and Mahondra's immediate response is I'm sure you didn't mean to. That just made me laugh. She knows her so well that she knows that Jay did it and it's probably from the phrasing of the, you know, like just he got run over, instead of saying someone ran him over or like he was hit by a car.

Catherine: 37:30

Like he got run over. So Mahandra immediately is like oh, I'm sure you didn't mean to Nice, so that was funny to me.

Andrew: 37:37

Yes, what else?

Catherine: 37:38

Another one that I didn't talk about but that I have written down here is and I'm not going to remember his name again the bartender.

Andrew: 37:44

Eric Eric.

Catherine: 37:46

When Jay answers the phone.

Andrew: 37:48

Yes, this is one of my favorite moments.

Catherine: 37:50

I'm going to go into because you know a little, look behind the curtain. We have a whole shared document of notes. So I think I know what andrew's going to talk about, but my piece is a little bit different what is?

Catherine: 38:01

yours, which is um, when she talks about wanting to destroy heidi and the fireworks go off in his eyes and like it was a heavy-handed way to show that like he's into jay, right, but I love that they're starting to establish that like jay and eric are interested. Other Um, and I thought that was really cute. Like she's she's so aggressive, but her saying that she wants to destroy Heidi is like that moment where he's like, oh, like he loves her.

Andrew: 38:32

She's on his side. Yeah, which is nice. Yeah, which I think he finds is nice because he's not from the area, right? So he's, he's got no friends up there.

Catherine: 38:45

Yeah, and I mean again, I don't think this steps on what you're going to talk about, but I feel like and maybe I'm just reading into it Are we going to find out that his story is not the truth? I feel like there's something like why is she even calling him? I?

Andrew: 39:03

don't know.

Catherine: 39:04

Unless it's to, like, get divorce papers signed Could be yeah, so anyway, um, that was my number two, um, and then I just love the whole conversation that ends in defy the chicken. Defy the chicken, like he clearly doesn't know what's going on, right, because the only person who really knows is Mahandra. And who's he?

Andrew: 39:25

When? Eric, I'm sorry, okay.

Catherine: 39:26

Cause.

Catherine: 39:27

That's the whole conversation where she's talking about the chicken and and he clearly like she's told him about it. But he's like, oh, but you know, you're just talking about it metaphorically or whatever, right? So he doesn't know that the chicken is really talking to her. And yet he still ends up at defy the chicken. And I just thought that was really a sweet. He's being supportive even though he doesn't actually believe that she's being spoken to by the chicken pin. So those were my three. Got it, I've got four. I mean I. I technically have four too, because he's the man of my list made it, but we talked about that before and we talked about lesbian porn on basic.

Andrew: 40:04

Yes, so I'll leave that. That's on my list, okay, so, so, so, yeah, so, so playing to yours.

Catherine: 40:10

Here's the weird thing jay doesn't have a cell phone right which to to imagine a 20 something not having a in 2004, especially because I got my first one as soon as I graduated college, and that was 98.

Andrew: 40:22

Yeah, but I think it's just more of her slacker. Just right, Disconnect. She's disconnected from everybody in her life, so I think it just plays on on that. So Jay borrows Eric's phone to call her father. So she's on the phone with her father. And while she's on the phone with her father call waiting beeps through and she decides to answer it and it is Eric's cheating wife who we learned about in episode one. And Jay explains that Eric can't come to the phone right now because he is servicing me sexually and like it's just like. I love how blunt she is about it. She's just like very matter of fact, yeah, and then she tells Eric the whole thing. But I and again, I love that. It's an old school Nokia.

Catherine: 41:17

Which was my first phone, a red Nokia. I used to play Snake on the train.

Andrew: 41:21

The original candy bar before the. That was like pre-flip phone. Yeah it was. It was pre-flip phone, yeah. So I just loved that moment because I thought it was just so funny. She's just like because she has such a, she has such a. She's so because I think she's into eric yeah, oh, she definitely, and so she's very protective of him.

Andrew: 41:42

I think, yeah, so, so it's more that than anything else. Um, so that was one um. Second of all, I just love a big mouth. Billy bass yeah, that was a good one, I mean, that's just, that's classic.

Andrew: 41:56

Take me to the river, so it's just like it's just, it's just, I love it, I just, I just love that. And he's like get off your ass. Yep, um, so that was good. And then, and then, my favorite line in the hospital when yeah, because, because jay is just like she's so mortified and she's like can we pretend this just didn't happen? And the, the mother, goes that's what morphine is for, dear.

Catherine: 42:26

This is getting back to how I don't think that the characters are portrayed consistently. The mother's a super successful author, and that is the next episode where we kind of find that out. Really, I don't know this personality, I don't know, so that's all I know. We have a section of the podcast coming up talking about what worked and what didn't. Yes, that would be one of the things that didn't work for me so, so let's talk about that.

Andrew: 42:51

So let's talk about what, yeah, what didn't work for you so I think I've talked about a bunch of that you have.

Catherine: 42:58

I don't know if there's anything else, but I just think that I feel like maybe the I feel like maybe they didn't really understand where they wanted to go with this yet you know what. I mean.

Andrew: 43:13

It hasn't found its legs.

Catherine: 43:14

Yeah, and I feel like they're just kind of throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. Yes, and not usually the greatest way to do it. I mean, I feel like there are other shows and I don't know why I keep referring to the Big Bang Theory today. I think it's because I've been taking a bunch of naps and so I have it on a lot.

Andrew: 43:34

I see.

Catherine: 43:35

You can. If you are an established show, you can take a character and change that character over time, right? Amy Farrah Fowler is a good example of that, where she starts out very similar to Sheldon and then over time becomes just a real person instead of like something robotic. Right, it's jarring when you go back and see it, but because the show was established, they could get away with that. I think because this was a brand new show, you needed to have just much more cemented ideas of who your characters were, and I feel like they didn't really know who anyone was in this family other than jay. It's like they had jay down as a slacker, right, and everybody else was just like wealthy family, successful. And then they you know, sharon is lesbian. You know, like father is doctor it's just very much.

Andrew: 44:32

They picked up tropes of a hundred percent of different things, and and and. Didn't flesh out the characters. They're like this one will be a lesbian, this one will be, you know, the, the PhD student. This one's the doctor.

Andrew: 44:45

Right, they're all very successful in what they do, but we have there's there's nothing behind them. Yeah, it's like they didn't so as, as a good D and D player, they did not write a backstory for these, these characters, and I think that's probably why now remember this. This was aired as the fourth episode. Yeah, so this is the last one that aired, right, um, and I'll be curious to see the episodes that did not air yeah to see how how the characters may or may not have grown but.

Andrew: 45:16

I I completely agree that it's of the characters may or may not have grown, but I I completely agree that it's um yeah they didn't.

Catherine: 45:23

they didn't know who these people were. Because the mother is both somehow vapid and caring, like she has moments of actually giving a crap right, but then she's also like have you gone green? And you know? Like it's hard for me because they do, and maybe this is the big piece of it they don't seem like real people.

Andrew: 45:42

No, it's very interesting. Yeah, they don't. They don't feel real yet Like I don't feel. I feel even from episode episode, episode. We've only watched two. I mean we watched three, but we were in episode two Right Even after episode two. They're they're two completely different people, almost yes, and they're different people within the episode. Yes as well. I feel like Sharon is pretty.

Catherine: 46:09

Sharon's character is pretty consistent. Sharon's pretty solid. They had the nice moment in the first episode where, like, Sharon and Jay kind of bonded Right and that carries through to this episode. Yeah, Um, you know, nope, that's the next step. See, I get confused with the episodes. She's still kind of zinging Jay and stuff, but but she's also like they're hanging out together now and they're spending time together as sisters. I do think. Yeah, I think of all the other characters, Sharon is probably the most developed.

Andrew: 46:39

Yeah, yeah. So Sharon, I agree that Sharon is the most developed of the. Well, we never even really I mean, we knew, we knew nothing about um Aaron. Aaron in the in the first episode, her siblings named Sharon and Aaron.

Andrew: 46:55

I did not pick that up, sharon and Aaron. I did not pick that up, aaron and Aaron. Jeez, oh, that's not good. Um, yeah, so I love all of our notes on this episode. It's so funny. So, yeah, so I, I completely agree. So let's talk about so that's what. That's what's working and not working so far. Right, um, behind the scenes trivia A few things.

Catherine: 47:24

You've had some good stuff for this.

Andrew: 47:26

A lot of this. Again credit to IMDB when Gretchen Speck-Horowitz is handing out those couples cards of her and her husband or Robert. Horowitz is handing out those couples cards of her and her husband Yep oh.

Catherine: 47:40

Robert. Robert, he has a name.

Andrew: 47:41

There it is, robert Bob. The address is one 46, bonnie Meadow road. Okay, new Rochelle, new York. This address is a reference to the Dick Van Dyke show Interesting. Yes, rob and Laura Petrie lived at one 48 bonnie meadow road in new rochelle. Okay, millie and jerry helper, apparently their address would have been 146 interesting the next door neighbor, so they were the next door neighbors to rob, and laura petrie apparently nice that's cool nice little call back there I like that.

Andrew: 48:15

Um, now this I I'm going to try to play the clip off of YouTube for this. So, um, the character who the actress who played Gretchen spec Horowitz in this episode, also plays a character named Gretchen spec in the second episode of the series Hannibal, which again is a Brian Fuller production. So we're going to I'm going to see if I can bring this up. I got to go to. I will credit the Redditors of the subreddit Wonderfalls for bringing this, for showing this.

Catherine: 49:02

Any of you holding Speck Horowitz couples cards toss them. They no longer apply. I'm losing the hyphen and keeping the ring. So there's the.

Andrew: 49:12

Wonderfalls clip Yep On Hannibal. Can you get a prescription for Gretchen Speck? Gretchen Speck, horowitz? Oh, it's just Speck. We're divorced on Hannibal. Fascinating so again. When I first read this I'm like oh, they just wrote in a character named Gretchen.

Catherine: 49:36

Speck? No, it's the character.

Andrew: 49:43

It's actually Gretchen speck. Like they play the whole like lost the hyphen kept the ring, like the whole bit. They they tied into a handle episode. So that's like a. That's a deep, deep cut. Yep, like you've got. You've got a. Really like the few people that watched wonderfalls when it was on, right um hey, and if you're a Brian Fuller fan, maybe you did. Exactly.

Catherine: 50:00

I've watched everything he's done.

Andrew: 50:02

Maybe so, so that I that I just thought was really clever and we talked about the Dandy Warhol song yeah, we used to be friends, yeah, which I think the title very apropos for sure for this episode.

Catherine: 50:17

Oh yeah, perfect.

Andrew: 50:18

Yes, um, some of the other things that I'm just looking through the other notes the other little notes here, the father wearing a Republican pin.

Catherine: 50:29

right, he must be just the way they act, like they have to be, yeah, they have to be, and and that would be kind of a character trait if you're thinking about it Like the have to be and and that would be kind of a character trait if you're thinking about it like their, their children of a republican family would have been terrified to tell them they were gay, right? Uh, they wouldn't have been. They would have been skeptical of carpooling. Why would you go green, right? I mean, that's all very consistent with today oh yeah.

Andrew: 50:54

And one of the other things that I loved was gretchen refers to herself as a Christmas and Easter Jew.

Catherine: 50:59

Yeah, that was good. You did call out the lion going. Hmm, they have that in the intro. I like that, that it's part of the intro of the show.

Andrew: 51:11

The lion is very interesting.

Catherine: 51:12

Yeah.

Andrew: 51:15

And somehow the mother is friends with all the people.

Catherine: 51:20

all the girls from high school Like yeah, that, that's another piece that I find, and this is why I think they don't really know who the mother's character is yeah. You have in the notes about Eric saying that he's borderline autistic. Yes, and I. I hated this because it was very much rain man. Oh well, I know numbers Right Like again, looking at it from a 2025 perspective, it's a very narrow definition of what an autistic person is, or a person on the spectrum.

Andrew: 51:51

It's. This is this is written by somebody that that doesn't know any people that are autistic.

Catherine: 51:56

Absolutely A hundred percent, because Andrew's son, my stepson, is on the autism spectrum and I don't think Max has ever looked at a box of toothpicks on the floor and counted them. No you know like it just people are people. It's a spectrum for a reason, and again it's a 2004 interpretation of what an autistic person is it is rain man.

Andrew: 52:19

How are you borderline?

Catherine: 52:19

It's not like you're not borderline, you either but that's exactly it. They're on the spectrum Exactly.

Andrew: 52:24

You're not. You're not either autistic or not.

Catherine: 52:26

Exactly. You are either autistic or not and you are somewhere on a spectrum in terms of how that impacts your life.

Andrew: 52:32

Yes, Um, one of one of the last things I will I'll point out is I just, I just love when, when Jay walks up to Gretchen with the, with the drink, and just goes, I destroy you.

Catherine: 52:48

Her heart is so not in it, oh, you know. The other thing I wanted to mention is that I love that Mahindra seeing how absolutely deranged Jay seems about destroying Gretchen is what it kind of like shines a mirror for for Mahondra.

Andrew: 53:07

And she's like oh.

Catherine: 53:08

God, is that what I look like, right? And then she just like goes off to like talk to friends and stuff, cause she's like I still hate Gretchen, but I don't want to be that person, right.

Andrew: 53:16

Indeed. So overall I think it was a good episode. I really enjoyed it.

Catherine: 53:22

actually, I mean as much as I have some issues with the writing. I enjoyed the episode a lot Same.

Andrew: 53:30

So that covers Pink Flamingos. Yeah, episode dos. Technically, episode two aired, number four. Maybe four, two, four. So again, thank you.

Catherine: 53:42

Thank you all for listening into this episode of seeking season two, I'd say if you have feedback on how we've kind of changed up the format, please do let us know. Yes, we check.

Andrew: 53:57

Go to again. I love it because there is a wonderful subreddit, yep, so it's a. It's a great place, not not super active, but but there are some definite fans in there and we did get some good feedback on our first episode thank you. Thank you to the listeners of of the subreddit for providing feedback on our first episode. That was very helpful. Um, what else we're we're on? We're on the socials, sort of ish instagram we're on the socials.

Andrew: 54:24

We're old, we are gen x. We are gen x and I have issues with the next episode and we'll talk about that. Um so, thank you everyone for listening and we'll we'll catch you next time. Bye, bye.