Andrew: 0:09

Welcome again to another episode. Episode three is the magic number. Episode three of Seeking, season Two. We are your hosts, andrew and Catherine and Catherine and Catherine. Yes, we got canceled, but after more than a few seasons, us as a relationship.

Catherine: 0:36

Our relationship got canceled.

Andrew: 0:37

Our relationship got canceled.

Catherine: 0:39

After 18 years of marriage, 22 years together, yes, and yet here we are.

Andrew: 0:46

And yet here we are. And yet here we are, podcast. Here we are, face to face a couple of silver spoons bingo.

Catherine: 0:54

Did you think I wouldn't know that?

Andrew: 0:55

I know you I know you'd know that. That's why I was waiting for it. I knew I knew you'd nail that line. So welcome back to seeking season two, where we analyze TV shows that received only a season or less than a season in the case of Wonderfalls, only a season and we will debate whether or not they deserved a season 2 or not. So far the jury's out. I think on Wonderfalls, I think we're probably about 50. After two episodes in, we're like 50-50,. I think. On Wonderfalls, I think we're probably about 50. After two episodes in, we're like 50-50,. I think at this point I'm 66-33. 66-33. Ooh, nice. In which direction?

Catherine: 1:36

I liked the first two episodes. I did not like this one at all.

Andrew: 1:40

Yeah, this one was a bit. I was saying before this episode we were 50-50.

Catherine: 1:45

Yes, before this episode. Oh no, before this episode. I would have said yes, you would have said yes.

Andrew: 1:50

Yeah, it deserves a season two Okay.

Catherine: 1:51

I liked the first couple episodes quite a bit. I think there are some issues with the writing, but I think that's a lot of shows very early on.

Andrew: 1:58

Right, right right.

Catherine: 1:59

So I can overlook that. I can overlook that I.

Andrew: 2:06

I agree with you there um, I mean, I think they're at a point where they haven't found their footing yet, right? So let's see if they find their footing in this episode episode number three, yeah, which I believe was episode aired as episode number three. I believe that's correct. They flip-flop two and four. Uh, episode three karma, chameleon, karma, karma, karma, karma, karma. So, first of all, my first issue.

Catherine: 2:26

Yes.

Andrew: 2:29

I know it's a play on the song, yeah, but here's the thing. What does karma have to do with this episode?

Catherine: 2:36

Yeah, nothing, nothing.

Andrew: 2:37

Just because it's a chameleon that talks to her, we've got to call it Karma Chameleon.

Catherine: 2:48

So right off the bat I was like, okay, this is so. Yes, are these all song lyrics? Maybe not. I was trying to see if there was a a running. Yeah, like pink Flamingo was a, a song by Dave McCartney and the pink flamingos 1996. I'm just trying to see if there's like cause a lot of shows lion.

Andrew: 3:13

Was there a song called why? If there, was a song called wax lion.

Catherine: 3:17

I will eat your hat.

Andrew: 3:19

I will eat, and my hat's right next to me.

Catherine: 3:22

Oh yeah, look at that, there's a hat. Oh, look at that, there's a hat. Oh, look a hat. Wax Lion is a noisy rock band based in Brooklyn, new York. Let's see when were they founded? Yeah, I don't think Wax Lion is a song. Okay, so maybe none of it makes any sense.

Andrew: 3:45

So we were talking about whether the episode titles have meaning, so what?

Catherine: 3:47

we're finding out is they don't, they don't know, they have no meaning they are literally just named after whatever is talking to her in the episode and they had to call it karma cameo. I just I know why couldn't you just be like I don't know, talking chameleon?

Andrew: 4:00

rainbow chameleon, like I know exactly.

Catherine: 4:02

Yeah, like anything exactly chameleon cam literally could have just called it chameleon, rainbow chameleon, like I know Exactly. Yeah, like anything. Exactly, chameleon, you literally could have just called it chameleon, exactly.

Andrew: 4:09

I don't know. They thought they were clever. Well, here's the well. Okay, Now, speaking of clever cause, this didn't occur to me until right this very moment. Excellent Speaking of chameleons.

Catherine: 4:19

Yes.

Andrew: 4:19

Bianca. Oh duh, oh, bianca is the chameleon.

Catherine: 4:25

But it still has nothing to do with karma.

Andrew: 4:28

It has nothing to do. Fuck, I don't know why they put karma in it. It's so annoying. Anyway, I feel like it was just for the sake of calling it karma chameleon, to be clever. It has nothing to do with the episode, except for, obviously, the talking chameleon.

Catherine: 4:43

Right.

Andrew: 4:44

AKA Bianca the chameleon Single white female so let's get into some of the details first. So kind of the plot line is Jay is starting to mentor a young runaway.

Catherine: 4:59

Yep.

Andrew: 5:01

Who appears to be a young runaway with a stutter Yep Named Bianca G, gets her a job at Wonder Falls and Bianca, so kindly quote unquote repays her kindness by taking over her life. A la single white female charming the Tyler family, pursuing Jay's crush, eric the bartender. Jay is motivated to fight for her life and help bianca get her own.

Catherine: 5:30

yeah, fascinating is it, though?

Andrew: 5:33

it is this one was written by tim muneer. Love tim muneer. Do you know?

Catherine: 5:38

are you being serious or of course I know who Tim Minear is. Okay, they got the mustard out, they got the mustard.

Andrew: 5:48

Okay, I know what you're talking about, but please.

Catherine: 5:51

Tim Minear was a writer on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and later, I believe, showrunner for Angel.

Andrew: 5:59

He was an executive producer.

Catherine: 6:00

Executive producer On Angel and Firefly yes, but Tim Minear is very much in the Buffyverse, which is very much my area.

Andrew: 6:07

Yes, so explain the whole singing.

Catherine: 6:15

Oh, once more with feeling. Tim Minear was in the episode once more with feeling and has a lovely voice. It's a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the musical episode, yes, all songs written by Joss Whedon, who is a problematic and terrible man. So we just pretend he doesn't exist anymore.

Andrew: 6:30

That's right, but we celebrate his work but not the man.

Catherine: 6:33

I will never not love Buffy, the Vampire Slayer Right Having a much, much harder time with JK Rowling right now.

Catherine: 6:39

Ooh.

Catherine: 6:50

Oof yikes, yeah, 10 foot pole not not far enough I'm. I will still buy actually buffy branded things, even though the money royalties probably go to him, probably.

Catherine: 6:54

I will only buy buffy.

Catherine: 6:55

I will only buy harry potter stuff from independent artists going forward. Yeah, can't support her. She's a horrible person. Yeah anyway, did.

Andrew: 7:04

You also know that tim menier was also an executive story editor. Can't support her. She's a horrible person.

Catherine: 7:08

Yeah, anyway, did you also know that.

Andrew: 7:14

Tim Minear was also an executive story editor on the X-Files Season 5? I did not know that, yeah.

Catherine: 7:19

And also has quite a few writing credits on Angel and Firefly. Yeah, he's very prolific and definitely was very in that whole Joss whedon world. Uh, in the late 90s, early 2000s yes, this was also directed by marita.

Andrew: 7:32

I'm gonna butcher her last name grabyak, sure, sure, again prolific director I I was. I was looking at her credits in imdb like just obviously a relationship with joss whedon here too. All over the place.

Catherine: 7:45

Angel Buffy, firefly Dollhouse.

Andrew: 7:47

Yes.

Catherine: 7:49

Yeah, that's all Joss shows.

Andrew: 7:52

And here again is Dawson's Creek.

Catherine: 7:53

I don't want to wait.

Andrew: 7:55

Yes, sorry, damn it. Now I've got to pay for that.

Catherine: 7:59

I don't think I used enough of it. Oh sweet.

Andrew: 8:07

I could keep going. She also directed a bunch of episodes of 9-1-1.

Catherine: 8:11

I have never watched that show. I see ads for it constantly.

Andrew: 8:14

I guess there's spinoffs too, none of which I have seen. Oh yeah.

Catherine: 8:18

All of these procedurals do so well and I'm not interested in any of them. I mean, is Will Trent technically a procedural? Because I do love that show.

Andrew: 8:28

Love me, some Will Trent, what a good show.

Catherine: 8:30

Did you watch the season yet, though it's so good? I watched the first couple episodes. It's a good season.

Andrew: 8:37

Excellent, there's so much TV I've got to catch up on Because we were watching Severance but I haven't Did you watch the end of it yet. No.

Catherine: 8:45

Have you yeah.

Andrew: 8:47

Oh, you gave up on our co-watching.

Catherine: 8:49

Well, so did you, didn't you? No, oh, I thought you meant you and Laura were watching Severance. No, we can go back to it.

Andrew: 8:57

No, no, no, that's all right.

Catherine: 8:58

What happened was Rob was way ahead and I was afraid he was going to ruin it for me if. I didn't watch through, so I watched it.

Andrew: 9:07

I've only watched the first episode, or the first or second episode.

Catherine: 9:10

It's a weird season and I had a lot of questions at the last episode. So when you get there, let me know, because I got a lot to talk about.

Andrew: 9:16

Alright, I will definitely watch that.

Catherine: 9:18

I always have a lot to talk about.

Andrew: 9:20

That's why we have a podcast, that's why you're the co-host of the podcast.

Catherine: 9:24

Because I have a lot to talk about. I got a lot of opinions. I got a lot of problems with you people. Now for the airing of the grievances.

Catherine: 9:30

I got a lot of problems with you people.

Andrew: 9:32

You're going to hear about it. Exactly, you've got a lot of problems with this episode.

Catherine: 9:40

I do, and we're going to say up front Andrew is much better versed in this episode because I hated it and I only watched it once.

Andrew: 9:47

Yeah, I've got a lot of personal feelings about this episode. Yeah, so let's dive into it. So let's go through. Let's go further into the main plot. Yeah Again, karma Chameleon Jay encounters Bianca AKA binky. God yeah, stupid nickname, awful nickname.

Catherine: 10:10

Stupid. No one would choose that.

Andrew: 10:13

If you're a Bianca out there that chose the nickname binky, we're.

Catherine: 10:17

I'm not sorry, that's a bad nickname.

Andrew: 10:19

Bad nickname.

Catherine: 10:20

Yeah.

Andrew: 10:21

You got to tell the baby is ugly, that's an ugly baby.

Catherine: 10:24

That baby is breathtaking exactly I hate.

Catherine: 10:30

So again, let's just go right into what worked and what didn't work, because, okay, the whole thing about the stutter I mean oh, awful awful choice of like a plot point like that, that she's got a stutter like well, and they and this is something to overcome and they play the stutter for comedy, which is just oh, oh, I know it's a god, yeah again, and, and this keeps coming up this is a 2025 perspective on something that was more appropriate, I guess, or acceptable in the early 2000s, it passed in 2004.

Andrew: 11:10

Awful, awful, awful, awful. Yeah, so she's got the stutter, which is more pronounced when she is stressed, but at least, and again, at least Mahondra points it out at some point.

Catherine: 11:24

Yeah.

Andrew: 11:24

Because when Bianca's going and then then Jay makes fun of her and is like buh, buh, buh, bye, yeah. Then like at least Mahandra calls her out and was like yo, that was not cool, yeah, so at least, and and Mahandra's character, I think, is very much the voice of reason, though we talked about it in the last episode where she kind of is the mirror to Jay, like you know, to Jay.

Catherine: 11:51

Jay holds that mirror up of being vengeful and Mahondra sees herself in it and is like, oh, don't like that. I think Mahondra, is she just a server at the restaurant, I believe so. But she's still somehow. Don't denigrate servers.

Andrew: 12:10

No, I just meant is she the manager?

Catherine: 12:12

Because I kind of thought she might be the manager. Because my whole point is, mahondra is much more mature than Jay Very much, and much more like voice of reason-y than Jay yes agreed. So that was really all I was getting at with. That is that Mahondra constantly kind of stands up as the more mature of the two, despite being the same age and kind of having similar experiences, except that Jay went to a freaking Ivy League college and learned nothing.

Andrew: 12:38

Right, well, I don't know. I mean she did write. I mean, in this episode she did write a 5,000-word article about and don't get me started Again this episode was very problematic. It really is.

Andrew: 12:54

It's awful, so let's talk more about the plot and then let's dive into it. So again, it was in the bar. Bianca steals Jay's wallet, right, and we're starting to get glimpses of Bianca spying on Jay. Bianca returns the wallet this is where we see the chameleon, because Jay realizes she's having a, that Bianca stutters. She hears the chameleon say get her words out. And she goes oh, her words. So that's when it, that's when it clicks that this is the person that she's supposed to right, help, um, and I don't know if, like, it's not about, it's weird, because I don't know if she thinks she's trying to like, cure her stutter or or what she's trying to do. But, um, then then at this point, um, you see the slow progression of Bianca becoming Jay, right the hair.

Catherine: 14:00

Yeah.

Andrew: 14:01

The vest. Yeah, the slacker kind of disaffected attitude. Yeah, all that. She's starting to mimic her behavior, her behavior starting to kind of. Then she starts because she and at one point she and Jay are talking about Eric the bartender and Jay mentions that she thinks that he's cute, and so now Bianca is kind of weaseling her way in on the bartender. It's very weird, like for who's supposed to be an investigative reporter.

Catherine: 14:37

Yeah, she gets very weird I also really I feel like they like, they have heavy-handedly like well, I did that.

Catherine: 14:46

I was just gonna say I feel like they went too hard on a lot of it. Like her father comes in and gives Bianca a kiss on the cheek, thinking she's like, come on, yeah, you could have put, you know, five identical people next to me and I'm pretty sure my father could have picked me out of that lineup Like yeah, it just again. Oh, it's supposed to be funny, I get it. And I certainly have a sense of humor.

Catherine: 15:11

Um, I just didn't find that funny no I don't know and maybe that's that's me empathizing with jay, right like right how horrifying it would be to see your father come in and think somebody else was you right. Um, and maybe that's the point, but I just thought it was. Again, you said heavy-handed and I think that's the perfect phrase for it yeah, so here.

Andrew: 15:31

Here's the thing, though, because I think it's all so. So the episode kicks off when the father so we learn really in this episode that the mother is an author, apparently a very prolific. This is what her sixth book, or something, and she's she writes travel books.

Catherine: 15:50

That woman doesn't look like she's set foot outside a spa in 10 years. Yeah, it's really weird. Um, and this goes back to my point from the last episode of, I don't think they really built out most of the characters beyond yeah jay, maybe sharon right, the dad is starting to have a personality, right, and now the mom is a travel writer apparently.

Andrew: 16:11

so so weird. But it starts out the father's reading the blurb on the dust jacket of the book.

Catherine: 16:20

Which I guess the blurb is kind of the subplot. Right, the blurb is the subplot.

Andrew: 16:24

So it talks about. He is a well-known local physician. The daughter is a successful immigration attorney. Yep, and again we get into something else problematic. He is the. The son, aaron, is the first non-asian winner of the um. What's the scholarship?

Catherine: 16:46

scholarship for religious studies?

Andrew: 16:48

yes, he's the first non-asian winner of like, so the youngest non-asian winner youngest non-asian winner, the youngest non-Asian winner Youngest non-Asian winner of the Fulton Scholarship. It's just again so problematic.

Catherine: 17:01

Do Asian people even exist in this show?

Andrew: 17:06

Because this is another point that you wanted to bring up God. Where do we begin? There's so many problems. Yeah, so let's get to, let's, let's beat one problem dead horse at a time um I mean, it's the thing that everybody talks about with friends, right?

Catherine: 17:20

yes, everyone's white everyone's white, exactly, except you got mahondra yes, and I mean that's on south park where the black kid's name is token. Yes, yeah, there's a reason for that, right, I know.

Catherine: 17:35

And I didn't want hondra is the token.

Catherine: 17:37

Yes, well, that's why I said it the way I did, because I don't want to be like she's the token black person, but she is. She's the token minority. Right, this was very, very consistent with early 2000s, yeah late 90s to early 2000s yeah.

Andrew: 17:52

Late nineties to early 2000s yeah, Um lack of diversity.

Catherine: 17:55

Um, like I'm even thinking about. You know, buffy is my favorite show, but early seasons you didn't have anybody Right, and even later you get like Robin wood and and a few people in, but and then finally, when you move to angel, you get gun as a main character, but again it's like they're the only one Right. It's just a tough, yeah, and then, yeah, it's just a tough time period, I think, and not that we don't still have those problems in TV, because we absolutely do, but at least there's a little bit more representation now than there used to be, right.

Andrew: 18:34

So let's go so. So draw all of this back to my original point of when the father says hello to Bianca as Jay, yeah, and she's like hello dad, yeah, she's creepy, yeah. Well, here's the thing, though. So what, I was tying it back to reading of the blurb, so it reads off everybody is super successful, except the five words, and one is a digit of Jay, the daughter who is 24. So even in the blurb she's very insignificant, kind of an afterthought. So I think a lot of those little scenes aren't necessarily meant to be humorous, but are meant to hammer home the point of the subplot that I almost feel it's like the photograph in Back to the Future where the family's disappearing, like she's disappearing. I feel like she feels like she is slowly disappearing and not out of existence, yeah, so that's how I kind of see it, because she hasn't, according to her, compared to her family, she hasn't been super successful.

Andrew: 19:53

She works a retail job right after after going to brown, some somehow got into brown as we said last episode to brown with no extracurriculars, no extracurriculars.

Andrew: 20:03

That's how that works, amazing um, so I I feel like they kind of they're just playing into the fact that she's disappearing and is insignificant like she's. She sees herself as being insignificant. Um, and then, and then, the main plot of single white female, bianca, becoming jay, I think, when, when she, when jay, finally finds out that b Bianca is an investigative reporter, she suddenly feels, I think, significant because Bianca is writing about her, even though it's about her not being successful. It's because she chooses not to Right. She chooses to. She's made that. Chooses not to Right Like she chooses to. She's made that choice. Yeah.

Catherine: 20:59

Can we also discuss Bianca's an investigative reporter at age 21?, because she said she was a freshman when Jay was a senior. Is that right?

Andrew: 21:10

Yeah, well, here's see, I think, I think she's coined herself as an investigator.

Catherine: 21:13

Yeah, because like she seems to be working independently.

Andrew: 21:17

Because I think she submitted a story idea to this magazine and they said, yeah, go for it. Go for it Because she doesn't. I mean because they don't accept the letter until the end, they don't accept the article until the end. So I think she's just coined herself as an investigative reporter. I don't think that's. I like that better, because at 21, you're definitely still fetching people's coffee at that point Exactly. So that's a lot of the main plot to it is just this whole single white female story of Bianca taking over Jay's life.

Catherine: 21:54

And we kind of talked about the subplot, which is really just the blurb.

Andrew: 21:58

Really the blurb, Like I think they're. They're very intertwined, yeah, but I think it's really Jay finding herself understanding that who she is in all in all this, so um and also being okay with the fact that she's a work in progress right, which I don't think she's seen herself as before right, you know, and so. So, as I said, as we were discussing this episode before recording yeah, I've got a lot of opinions on this because, no, because I see, I see I see a lot of myself in in this episode, okay, so so first of all, calling her gen y is wrong yeah, well, I mean two things.

Andrew: 22:42

Yes, go ahead you, no, no you. You want to talk about two things hit me as you pointed out, she'd be gen x. She would be jay, because this is 2004, she's 24, so she would have been born 1980, so she's tail end of gen x. But she's gen x she would be, because this is 2004, she's 24, so she would have been born 1980.

Catherine: 22:54

So she's tail end of gen x, but she's gen x right, she's on the cusp of gen x and and then I just thought it was funny to hear anybody called gen y anymore, because gen y is millennials, right. So it was kind of jarring for me, right. I was like, oh, gen y, oh yeah, that was a thing, wasn't it exactly?

Andrew: 23:16

so it was very interesting because they talk about the disaffected 20 somethings. And I was saying this earlier if we're talking about 20 somethings, if Jay is on the cusp at 24, so you've got half of the 20 somethings who are truly Gen X. So I really don't feel like I really don't feel like it was that the millennials are. Again, we can go into all the analysis of what each generation is like, but I don't feel like the millennials are the disaffected youth. I think that's really Gen X. I think they really missed the mark on what generation they were talking about. I think they wanted to talk about Gen Y.

Andrew: 23:56

Yeah, I think they had this great idea let's talk about Gen Y Right, and then how current, exactly. Let's be hip, let's be current. And then they totally just missed the whole, not even the bullseye, they didn't even hit anywhere on the target. They just missed this entirely. They just hit a squirrel in the tree or something, or the cat.

Catherine: 24:24

I was going to say is that what squirrels sound like?

Andrew: 24:25

No, I haven't talked to a squirrel in a long time, okay, so, anyway, talk talked to a squirrel.

Catherine: 24:42

Oh god, it's just we mentioned. I know we mentioned in the last episode, but just so everyone's clear, we're both still really freaking tired yeah, we're still.

Andrew: 24:47

This is, we're recording two episodes on the same day and we are still exhausted we started out tired and now we're punch drunk. We're loopy, yeah I mean we, we went and got started. Well, I mean you got.

Catherine: 24:59

You got your summer berry lemonade and there's some caffeine in the refreshers is there some caffeine?

Andrew: 25:04

yeah, that's good.

Catherine: 25:06

Not enough probably, but I did down an entire diet mountain dew on the way here so rock on.

Andrew: 25:11

I love that for you, thank you and I've got my venti latte with four.

Catherine: 25:18

He said four, he held up three fingers. That's how today is going.

Andrew: 25:24

That's exactly how that is a perfect, perfect wrap up of the day.

Catherine: 25:30

My latte was four shots, to quote my favorite, very tertiary character on 90 day, fiance Yike Yike.

Andrew: 25:39

Exactly, exactly, or, as drunk Ben Affleck would say, exactly, exactly, exactly. So, anyway, um, rough, rough, rough episode all around the plot, the subplot. Yeah, so let's talk about rough, rough episode all around the plot, the subplot. Yeah, so let's talk about again we, we, we mentioned it. The portrayal of the stutter portrayal, the stutter, awful, awful, um, just just the mind on. I mean it was painful. It was very painful. It was hard to watch.

Catherine: 26:09

It was hard to watch because you feel for a person who has a stutter to begin with. Because it is hard for watch because you feel for a person who has a stutter to begin with because it is hard for them to get their words out, sure, but then when it's being turned into a joke and everybody's essentially making fun of her right, awful, awful, awful, awful I agree.

Andrew: 26:25

So the stutter was using that as a as a plot point. Terrible overall the show in general. Lack of diversity I mean again, one person of color in the entire cast. I mean it was again late 90s, early 2000s. This was typical of these shows In 2025, we know that, we recognize that. So it's just. This is just another one of those shows that certainly lack diversity. I think the writing about Gen Y was just sloppy. Like I said, I think they wanted to talk about Gen Y because it was the thing to talk about at the time, Because we're just, it was an interesting time in 2004, because you're post Y2K, post 9-11, which is still fresh in people's minds a few years out. So I feel like Gen Y was just the thing to talk about. Because, again, they weren't even called millennials at the time, so they coined the term Gen Y. Hey, let's like. Gen Y was just like the thing to talk about.

Andrew: 27:33

Cause again, they weren't even called millennials at the time, Right so you know. They coined the term Gen Y. Hey, let's talk about Gen Y, Gen.

Catherine: 27:38

Y is the thing to talk about, the same way that, like millennials and Gen Z are the thing to talk about now.

Andrew: 27:44

Right.

Catherine: 27:45

It's just every.

Catherine: 27:47

It's just whoever the young people are.

Andrew: 27:58

Right are right, they want, they want to be hip, they want to be cool, um, and it's just, it doesn't, it doesn't land, it doesn't land, well, no at all, um, so that's, that's. That's frustrating. Now I know. So this I I want to say this episode didn't work at all I would agree I mean, I think I think they, I think they nailed it at the end.

Catherine: 28:19

I think they nailed the subplot, yeah I mean I think I would agree, and I think that came out of the main plot.

Andrew: 28:25

Yeah, um, it just wasn't done well seeing that she's a work in progress really I think gives her more depth depth than her just being a slacker, yeah.

Catherine: 28:37

I still think they're trying to figure out who the heck the mom's character is I agree. She's sitting there so empathetic toward Bianca no, empathy towards her own child but she's also supposed to be this like caring mother and wife, but I don't get that at all from her.

Andrew: 28:57

Oh, so let's talk about this though as well. So, because you mentioned in the last episode that you want to talk about in this episode, the father, the development of the father character, yeah.

Andrew: 29:04

Being close, you know, getting being a more sympathetic character toward Jay yeah, because all sorts of things. I remember the scene when Jay and Bianca are fighting over the plate cleaning up after pizza night and Jay is like I always clean up and Sharon's like you never come to pizza night but then like the plate shatters cause they both let go of the plate shatters and the father's like it's okay, he's, like you've lost, you just lost your job, like he's, he's definitely empathy yes, he's definitely empathetic toward, toward her situation.

Andrew: 29:37

Um, I mean, he's the one that feels guilty about her not having enough words in the blurb right, so he's the one that I I think. I think he's the one that coordinated getting her a total of 15 words. Well, and it's in the blurb.

Catherine: 29:53

And again that goes back to like, what is up with this mother? Like, are we supposed to see her as, like she has, she has no redeeming value right she, she thinks sharon and aaron, again sharon and aaron. Um, she thinks sharon and aaron are so wonderful because they're successful. But, like you, have three kids.

Andrew: 30:17

They've lived longer. They've lived longer than you.

Catherine: 30:21

So I mean literally. All you can say is Jay, a daughter, is 24. Jay, a Brown graduate Philosophy.

Andrew: 30:29

Brown, graduate in philosophy.

Catherine: 30:31

Lives in Niagara Falls Right Like you don't even have to get into the whole thing. That happens at the end, where she talks about that. No, that's me, Catherine. A senior marketing manager lives in New Jersey with her four cats. Lovely, Um, I mean, it's just so. It's so reductive. There's plenty you could say about Jay.

Catherine: 30:53

She's three years out of college. That is still a relevant time to talk about the fact that she went to an ivy right like that is not an unsuccessful person, that is a person figuring it out, right. I mean, when I graduated from college, I worked in an insurance brokerage. It surely was not what I wanted to do with my life, right, but you're figuring it out. I bounced from job to job, um office job to office job, but just trying to figure out where I fit for five years after college, right Before I finally started to actually like build my career Right, and I don't think anybody would have looked at me and been like Catherine is unsuccessful because she doesn't know exactly what she wants to do with her life right now. So it's just so dismissive. And am I supposed to like the mother Because I hate her? She is not. They give her moments like tiny little moments.

Andrew: 31:49

She's not been a likable character up until this point.

Catherine: 31:52

They give her moments of humanity. Yeah, they don't give her a personality. No, I hate it. I don't like it.

Andrew: 32:01

I agree, so let me talk about I've got some. I know you don't have any favorite moments.

Catherine: 32:07

Oh, I do have one.

Andrew: 32:09

I do have one Hit me.

Catherine: 32:12

Bianca is testing the little nerf shooter and shoots the mouth breather in the eye. I can't stand the mouth breather it works.

Andrew: 32:23

Because a woman's returning a toy like a nerf gun.

Catherine: 32:26

Yeah, say it doesn't work.

Andrew: 32:28

This one doesn't work she's like, and I want to test the other one before I take it, so I know it works.

Catherine: 32:33

And she shoots it and hits the mouth breather right in the eye Right in the eye, detached retina, I think, didn't they say yes? Yeah, I shouldn't find it funny, but I know I did, of course.

Catherine: 32:57

And one other thing I wanted to point out, not that it was a favorite moment, but that it was interesting in the grand scheme of the episode. There was one scene after Jay gets fired where they cut to Wonderfalls and Bianca looks so much like her that I thought it was Jay. I was like, oh my God, jay got her job back. And then I realized so I mean, they did a very effective job at casting someone who looked enough like the actress to get away with the single white female, right. But you know, if I had liked the whole episode better, I might have been like, oh, favorite moment, like they fooled me, ha ha, ha, ha, right.

Andrew: 33:27

So so we talked about the youngest non-Asian winner of the Fulton scholarship. However, I love later on, Jay makes the comment he still lives at home and is considered to be more successful than me, Right, because?

Catherine: 33:41

he's in the PhD program.

Andrew: 33:43

He's in his doctoral program. He still lives at home.

Catherine: 33:46

If she had gone back to school, maybe she would be perceived the same way. It's just that they treat her like she has no future just because she's working in a shop right now. But that's right now.

Andrew: 33:59

Exactly.

Catherine: 34:00

I feel like now I'm in therapy, when he constantly says to me no, that is right now, like that's what's happening now. That's not your whole future. You have no idea what's going to happen in your future.

Andrew: 34:08

Exactly.

Catherine: 34:09

You could plan everything perfectly. Our brother can go and get his PhD and do nothing with it.

Andrew: 34:15

Right, exactly Another favorite line of mine. I don't know what it was, just it's like a throwaway line, yeah, but she's talking about Jay, is talking about the blurb. It's right in the opening scene and she's like I've only got five words and one of them is a digit. And the father goes don't parse the blurb. Yeah, which I, just I just it's like something. And now I want to say don't parse the blurb.

Catherine: 34:38

Yeah, I know it is. That's some nice wordplay.

Andrew: 34:40

It's really good. And then and then I talked about this prior to our recording when they're sitting at the table and they the dinner's ending at all there? Now see, because some of them pull out cell phones but like a beeper goes off.

Catherine: 34:53

Yep.

Andrew: 34:54

A beep, I'm going to say a beeper. Like you, people know what a beeper is, so some of you know. Some of you still may know what a beeper is, but it's a precursor to cell phones, I mean in 2004,.

Catherine: 35:10

did that many people actually have beepers?

Andrew: 35:11

Because I don't think I knew anyone with a pager. Well, here's the thing because he's a doctor, so a doctor would have a pager.

Catherine: 35:14

That makes sense A doctor might still have a pager.

Andrew: 35:16

A doctor still might have a pager in 2004.

Catherine: 35:18

Although, probably just a cell phone now.

Andrew: 35:21

Yeah, it would definitely be a cell phone now, but they all pull out their devices, right, because the mother pulls out that weird phone. Did you notice her phone phone? Oh, no, I didn't. Was it? Uh, was it one of those um sidekicks? No, no, no, it's. It's circular at the top and like spins, oh weird, open. I, I can't even remember that phone. You're gonna, you're gonna, google it.

Catherine: 35:45

I totally am, because I don't know, I missed that because, it was it was.

Andrew: 35:49

it was like a phone that I don't recall ever seeing back in those days. I remember the sidekicks. I remember like the Palm devices, like I remember all those. I remember like the razors, like the flips and things like that. But this one, like I don't recognize. It was circular at the top and it like spun on that circle to open up to reveal the keypad and then the top I guess would have been like the, the uh speaker for the earphone, for the to talk interesting.

Catherine: 36:24

Yeah, I'm not finding anything okay, hang on.

Andrew: 36:28

It was a motorola v70 came out in 2002 I'm pretty sure is what it was. Yep, that's the kind of phone, but it spun on that circular part of the top.

Catherine: 36:37

I love the description in this article. We've got a handset that was bonkers even by Nokia standards the world's first phone with a circular display. The V70 was a phone bought for its design and design alone, with a sideways flick, swinging the front cover around to reveal the keypad beneath. There weren't many in the wild, but it would go on to inspire a newer, luxury version in the aura. Six years later, I'm looking to see if that's in here. Yeah, oh wow, that one's wild looking.

Andrew: 37:15

Yeah, that's basically the phone mean I mean, that's from 2008 2008 come out yeah, but it I think it was that v70 probably interesting motorola v70 that's a that's a deep cut right, I know, I just like it was the weirdest thing because I was. I was watching it and it's like okay, pagers go off. But then I saw her look at a. I'm like that's not a pager. Right, so like it really stood out to me in this episode and I'm like I've never seen that phone before.

Catherine: 37:46

Is this also supposed to drive home again the fact that Jay is so not connected?

Catherine: 37:53

because I know we talked in the last episode about the fact that she doesn't have a cell phone, and this just kind of reinforces that Right.

Andrew: 38:00

And what they did, was they also reinforced how successful they all were. Because the father needed a ride, because the mother had the car, mother and father came together. So the father had to get to the hospital, right? So he's like I've got to get to the hospital, right? So he's like I've got to get to the hospital. The daughter, or aaron, said I've got to do some dissertation work yeah I think he was going to the library.

Andrew: 38:22

He's like, I'll take you. And then sharon said well, I was going to go to the gym. I've got a busy day at court tomorrow, right? And then the mother was like, because she's like doesn't she have like a book tour or something? Yeah, she's got. I've got like an early day for about the book or something. Yeah, so they all. It's like they all like really re-emphasized again, like they're all super successful.

Andrew: 38:42

And jay was just like I'm just gonna stay here and get drunk yeah so they, like they, really hammered home the again very the episode was very heavy handed about this whole.

Catherine: 38:53

Gen Y slacker the quote. Gen Y slacker.

Andrew: 38:58

So that was. That was another interesting favorite moment of mine about just the pagers. Yeah, reliving the days of pagers, did you ever? Did you ever have a pager? I never had a pager. I never had a page. I wanted a pager, cause I did so.

Catherine: 39:09

I graduated.

Andrew: 39:10

I graduated college in 1998.

Catherine: 39:14

Yes, and as soon as I graduated I bought a red Nokia Right. It had a little extendable antenna.

Andrew: 39:21

Oh, I remember those.

Catherine: 39:22

Yeah, like it was the classic, like when you think of the classic Nokia. That's what I had Interesting. Yeah, so I never had a pager. It is like an iconic Buffy line though the apocalypse If the apocalypse, why can't I say apocalypse now? It is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is it is line. Yes, she wants to go on a freaking date, yes, anyway. So yeah, I like I feel like pagers were like an ongoing thing, isn't thing in these shows too, which is just funny.

Catherine: 39:59

Um, I agree. Why did you want a pager?

Andrew: 40:03

I don't know, I was just. I was a tech head yeah, I was always a tech head.

Catherine: 40:07

Yeah, um, like, because I got one of the first like palm pilots I won a Palm Pilot in a raffle when I was working a couple years out of school. Congratulations, thank you.

Andrew: 40:17

I remember my brother and I went to the electronics show at Jacob Javits Yep. I guess it must have been the 90s, I would imagine, because there was the.

Andrew: 40:29

Newton, the Apple Newton, that's right. But the Palm Pilot, it was us robotics. Yeah, it was the original company that, because it wasn't palm at the time, I think it was called the. I don't know if it's called the palm pilot or just the pilot. It was the us robotics. Um, was the company. I remember seeing them like show, like displayed, for the first time, yeah, as a pda personal digital assistant, that was like that was like the first time they coined that PDA. It was a big thing back in the day.

Andrew: 40:55

Yeah, it totally was, I'm like oh, I got to have one of these. I'm like nobody.

Catherine: 41:02

Oh, I didn't need it or use it Me and my three contacts Exactly.

Andrew: 41:05

My big calendar, yeah, but anyway. So the last little. I don't want, don't recall a favorite moment, but yeah, because the whole, the whole concept of get her words out.

Andrew: 41:18

yeah, because the the one because jay accuses bianca of um being like being fake, like not having a stutter right and and that's when Bianca's like, she's like, oh well, because she says she can't get a job, she goes I can't get a job because I have a stuff and because the thing it said like get her words out, and she's and Jay goes an STD. And I think, I think I think her character Jay knew she was trying to stay stutter, yeah, but she was just trying.

Catherine: 41:59

I think she was just trying to be being cruel and and, but I think it was just funny like std blunt, in the same way that she was when heidi called on eric's phone, right. Um, that's very jay, like she's just gonna say the thing that comes into her head, right, even if it's really, really mean yes, she came off.

Andrew: 42:24

She came off as kind of mean this oh, absolutely 100 no empathy at all yeah, like she it was was kind of like trying to be redemptive at the end about I'm a work in progress. You're a shitty work in progress.

Catherine: 42:39

You're not a nice person.

Andrew: 42:43

It takes me back to Seinfeld and the very last episode.

Catherine: 42:48

They've had no redemption at all.

Andrew: 42:50

The Good Samaritan because they broke the Good Samaritan law. Everybody comes out to tell what terrible people they are. No redemption at all. The Good Samaritan because they broke the Good Samaritan law. Yeah, everybody comes out to tell what terrible people they are.

Catherine: 42:56

Yeah.

Andrew: 42:57

You're a very, very bad man, Jetty.

Catherine: 42:59

Baboo.

Andrew: 43:05

So I don't find her very redemptive in this episode. I don't find her very likable in this episode no not at all. So for me totally this episode again did at all. So this for me totally this episode again did not work.

Catherine: 43:16

Missed the mark, agreed, it was really just sloppy all over the place, just If I had not been watching this episode for a podcast, I would not have finished this episode no.

Andrew: 43:27

Yeah, no, not at all, but we are. We are hosting a podcast about this show, we are, so I had to watch it exactly and watch them multiple times. I did not watch it multiple times.

Catherine: 43:39

Oh, good for you.

Andrew: 43:40

Yeah, I watched it I watched it like three times.

Catherine: 43:43

It was hard to get through. Yeah, I did not like it at all. It felt very long. I watched all the others multiple times but this one no yeah, so this is. This is a skipper, like I mean, it did feel very long. It is a skipper like I mean, it did feel very long, it is a skipper yeah I don't even know. I mean, I guess we'll see as we get into the other episodes, but I don't even know if this one's necessary for like character development or anything.

Catherine: 44:03

And I also wonder if this is part of why they moved other episodes around.

Andrew: 44:06

Maybe yeah I mean the only, the only person that had well, the only two people that had character development like not character development but depth of character a little bit was the mother, cause you found out she was a prolific author and you actually found out what the hell Aaron actually does. Cause it. We're now in episode three and this is the first time we talk about him at all, other than seeing him in the first episode, and this just occurred to me.

Catherine: 44:33

So is Jay's name different than Sharon and Aaron? Because the parents are Karen and Darren. Oh God, is Jay different from everyone else? Because Jay is different from everyone else.

Andrew: 44:48

Maybe her name is Jaron. She just goes by J.

Catherine: 44:55

Yeah, that just occurred to me. I'm like wait a second. The father is Darren, the mother is Karen, the sister is Sharon and the brother is Aaron and J and J and Peggy Exactly, skylar sister.

Andrew: 45:10

Interesting. I never put that together.

Catherine: 45:11

Yeah, that just kind of came to me as I was thinking about it. I'm like, oh, like, is there some kind of like? Is that just a thing that the writers did for that very reason to be like she's different, or are they trying to say something deeper? Like she's, she was like kind of created to be different.

Andrew: 45:33

Right, she was born to be different.

Catherine: 45:36

Yeah, she was set up to be different from like day one. Right, I wonder.

Andrew: 45:47

Interesting, so I'm just huh. Ooh interesting, okay, so. So let's talk about some trivia, some background to this yes this episode. Obviously I don't know. So obviously the episode is titled Karma Chameleon, so is it? We're talking about the karmic consequences of Bianca's actions.

Catherine: 46:28

Or Jay or Jay, just a substandard human.

Andrew: 46:30

Yeah, I don't know, but the actress who plays Bianca, carrie Matchett again all sorts of TV, but I think it was. What did I say? Grey's Anatomy.

Catherine: 46:47

Yes.

Andrew: 46:47

I think she was on several years of Grey's Anatomy. Here's a bizarre fact that I did not know. Series co-creator Brian Fuller apparently this is one of his favorite episodes has said in interviews that episodes like Karma Chameleon were where they really started leaning into the idea of the muses not just helping others but challenging Jay's worldview in uncomfortable ways.

Catherine: 47:14

I mean, I guess.

Andrew: 47:19

Yeah, I don't know. I get what he's saying yeah, I get what he's saying.

Catherine: 47:26

I get what he's saying from like a character arc perspective yes, they're building her up to start to be more introspective maybe Right and start to it's not just about helping someone else.

Andrew: 47:42

It's about learning.

Catherine: 47:43

It's what she's learning from helping.

Andrew: 47:45

Exactly what she's learning about herself in helping in helping others. So hopefully we'll see that play out in future episodes. Unfortunately, they didn't really get to live that out being canceled after four episodes. So we will certainly see and I'm trying to think, oh, so the one thing I was going to point out because we didn't point this out, we haven't pointed this out earlier? Because, again, lee Pace this is really one of the first times he's actively participating in the episode. Right, lee pace was not the original actor for for this role. Who was it? I? I didn't tell you this. Oh, I think you did. Adam scott, you did tell me.

Andrew: 48:25

adam scott is in the unaired original pilot episode of this of this episode of this show, of this show, and there was some scheduling conflict or something that he couldn't do, the he couldn't commit to a series at that point, I think.

Catherine: 48:40

I'm laughing because Adam Scott is undoubtedly a great actor, but Lee Pace is so much hotter.

Andrew: 48:45

Lee Pace is definitely hotter. I'll give you that so much hotter. But we were talking about Severance earlier and see it comes right back to severance in the end of this podcast episode when we talk about Adam Scott. Once more Waffle party.

Catherine: 48:58

No, we talked about that in the last episode. Was that the last?

Andrew: 49:01

episode yeah, same day.

Catherine: 49:03

Yes, see, this is what happens when we do multiple episodes in one day. We're not good at this. I'm the Doppler effect.

Andrew: 49:10

Yeah, so again. Yes, lots of severance talk these last two episodes, but anyway, again. So so, for any of you thinking about watching the series, if you haven't watched it already, don't, don't give up on the show after this episode. Well, we're going to keep going. We're going to keep going, so stick with us. I'm sure it's going to get better Again. Check out our Instagram. We're Seeking Season 2, at Seeking Season 2. Please follow, subscribe to the podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts, check out the subreddit, please. Please follow. Subscribe to the podcast where, wherever you listen to podcasts. Um, check out the subreddit. It's, it's. I mean, we don't host it, but check it out. There's some, there's some great people in there that, uh, that have some interesting little tidbits about, about the series and the actors, uh, in the show, et cetera. So check it out and thank you. Thank you again for listening to another episode of seeking season two, where we covered karma chameleon, episode three. I got it right with my holding on my fingers.

Catherine: 50:20

Now you've got the right number of fingers, the coffee is kicking in.

Andrew: 50:23

Coffee is kicking in. Finally, episode three of the one season of wonder falls, so stick with us for the next episode, which is the final episode that aired. It was the second episode that aired, but the final, the four episodes very complicated.

Catherine: 50:42

We're basically getting through the episodes that actually aired on TV. Thank you, thank you for summarizing that so succinctly.

Andrew: 50:49

Yes, and what is it called? I didn't even. Oops, oops.

Catherine: 50:53

It's not called called. I didn't even Oops, oops, it's not called oops. I said, oops, we didn't look it up.

Andrew: 51:01

Oops, we didn't do it again, so pink flamingos was the other one.

Catherine: 51:10

Is it wound up, penguin?

Andrew: 51:13

Wound up penguin.

Catherine: 51:19

Interesting.

Andrew: 51:23

There's one called muffin Buffalo Crime dog. I can't wait for the crime dog to start talking to her. That's going to be an interesting one. Barrel bear Lovesick ass. Nice, going to be an interesting one, barrel Bear Lovesick Ass.

Catherine: 51:35

Nice.

Andrew: 51:36

That should be a band name. We were talking about episodes that were band names. See if there's a band called Lovesick Ass.

Catherine: 51:43

Safety Canary.

Andrew: 51:45

Lying Pig Cocktail, bunny, totem Mole and Caged Bird. Can't wait.

Catherine: 51:54

I'm looking up. No, there's a band called Lovesick, but not Lovesick Ass.

Andrew: 52:00

Interesting, fantastic.

Catherine: 52:07

You know my band name. If I had a band.

Andrew: 52:10

Hey, that's my bike. No, oh, uncle Pep's.

Catherine: 52:11

Summer Haircut. Uncle Pep's Summer Haircut.

Andrew: 52:13

Uncle Pep's Summer Haircut Excellent. On that note, since it's just about summer, go get your haircut. Have a great time. Catch you in two weeks-ish. Sure Sounds good to me, I don't know when we're airing any of these, who knows?

Catherine: 52:28

Whenever they get published is when they get published.

Andrew: 52:30

That's right, what are we calling it? So what is it? Wound up penguin, yeah. So come back next time for episode four. Wound up penguin, yeah, they aired all sorts out of?

Catherine: 52:44

Yeah, they're all out of order. Yeah, look at the yeah.

Andrew: 52:48

This was technically episode three, I think.

Catherine: 52:50

Yeah, this was technically episode three.

Andrew: 52:52

I think, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Either way, we'll get to it. Yes, we will have a great time everybody. We'll talk to you next time. Bye.

Catherine: 53:01

Bye, bye, bye, bye.